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Mediocrity is great. You are right. Reasons are? Most think talent level. I am sure you have a different idea.
It's good to be the King.
So fans should stop holding the program in high standards ?
Nebraska is one of the Top 10 programs of all-time, the sooner you realize that not winning championships isn't acceptable then the sooner you can have a discussion on the matter. People need to stop lowering their standards and stop trying to rationalize the situation.
When Alabama won the SEC in 2009, it was their first Conference Title since 1999, should their fans have accepted that and acknowledge that they didn't matter one-iota in CFB ? No, they went out and hired Nick Saban. Maybe more fans should be demanding Nebraska hire a Top tier HC who can bring championships back to Lincoln.
Bamboo, or else...
We don't have 3 returning starters at WR. We have 2. If you want to count Marlowe/Turner as one, then by the same standards we need to count Tony Lippett, a guy who started 5 games for Michigan State as a returning starter as well.
And again...Michigan State has more than 4 starters back on offense. Hate to break it to you but McGaha started one game last year. If you are counting him as a lost starter then I am going to count Blake Treadwell who started 3 games as a returning starter. Michigan State returns 4 returning starters from last year's offensive line Fonoti (11 starts), France (13), McDonald (14) and Jackson (10).
If you count Sirles or A-Rod as a returning starter...then we need to count Tyler Hoover as a returning starter for Michigan State's defense since he started in 2010 and was hurt last year.
I wasn't tweaking the numbers at all. I wasn't including SIms, Hoover, Treadwell into my numbers for MIchigan State. You were the one trying to bend the numbers in Nebraska's favor and ignoring the same type of situations at Michigan State.
No need to retract anything. I didn't say they had more. I said they had as much or more. Which is correct.
The same would apply to you for your integrity. You've played this card before trying to tell me that I have to have the last word. That's fine....but it's hypocritical. Pot meet kettle in this instance. You are doing the same thing you are accusing me of.
And if I my intent was to denigrate the current team or Bo...I probably wouldn't have said twice in this thread that we either have a chance to win the division or that I even expect us too.
Your last paragraph is a nice tangent. It's too bad that your original argument was so flawed you have to resort to trying to create other strawmen.
But go one....find another player for Nebraska who you want to consider a returning starter, ignore any guys fitting the same criteria for Michigan State and then try coming up with conclusions as to what you think others intentions are, but make sure you ignore vital statements that would disprove your theory there too.
So what do we have? Not trying to be a jerk or anything. But what do we have and if that doesn't include winning conference championships why should we appreciate something below excellence, or at least excellence every so often. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.
I think we should win conference every 4 years or so. Make a bcs and win our division every 4 years or so.
cool picture from space
You're right. The defense only finished in the top 20 nationally in total D (6th), sacks (7th), rush D (9th), scoring D (10th), pass D (11th), tackles for loss (14th), 3rd down conversion D (16th) and pass efficiency D (18th). I admit the Red Zone defense was lacking; only 22nd.
Oh, and nice twist at the end there "Nebraska returns 8 starters from the END of last season. . . " If we want to go by that, MSU's DT, Anthony Rashad White, started the bowl game (and 4 other contests before being hurt earlier in the year), so if we want to go by who was starting at the end of the year, give MSU 9 starters. White had a pretty darn good bowl game for a DT; 7 tackles, 3 TFL and the game-winning blocked FG.
I can see questioning MSU's offense, but the defense? Really?
Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.
Thanks for the info on White...I had missed him
Are you just having fun talking out of your rear?
Michigan State lost 1 starting OL, Left Guard Joel Foreman. Left Tackle Dan France, Center Travis Jackson, Right Guard Chris McDonald and Right Tackle Fou Fonoti all return. Fonoti tarted the last 11 games of the year (14 game season with the CCG + bowl), Jackson 10 out of the last 11 at C; the "original" starting C, Blake Treadwell and RT, Skyler Burkland, both were lost for the year vs. Notre Dame (game 3). Treadwell is now the new LG, and Burkland the #1 reserve OT, providing he doesn't beat out one of the incumbents this fall.
That's 4 OL + RB LeVeon Bell, who started the final 7 games of the year, taking over for Edwin Baker. I count 5 returning starters on O.
Scoring 24 on MSU was good, but your D was what really made the difference. Nebraska tallied just 270 total yards of O, and just 80 yards passing. Nebraska just ground away at MSU, who couldn't sustain any drives. I actually thought the D played great in that game, but the O gave them no rest. Credit to your D, and arguably the worst-called game for MSU's OC all year. Crossing routes were how to attack your scheme, and he elected to throw deep into the teeth of a Cover 2. Just maddening to watch.
This post was edited by MalibuMan 21 months ago
Oh boy. If you include everyone from MSU who made a start last year as a returning starter, the list looks like this . . .
Offense: 8, 7 OL (LT France, C: Treadwell, Jackson, Ruhland (1 game), RG: McDonald, RT: Fonoti, Burkland) + 1 RB (Bell). Sims I can't recall starting a game at TE, but I could be wrong.
Defense (get ready to laugh): 15. 5 DL (DEs Gholston, Rush, Drone and Hoover, DT White), 5 LB (Bullough, Allen, Norman, Gardiner, Elsworth), 5 DBs (Adams, Dennard, Lippett, Lewis, Drummond)
You probably don't know this, but Hoover was a full-time starter at DE in 2010. He was also ahead of Rush at DE (FR AA, 58 tackles, 4 sacks, 12 total TFL, 9 QBH) going into the season, started the first half of the game vs. Youngstown State before breaking one of his ribs. At 6'7 310, he's moving inside this season. I don't count him as a returning starter personally, because he's in his first year at DT . . . but he is a guy with starting experience and a red-shirt senior.
FWIW, I consider a guy a returning starter if he started at least 50% of his team's games the year before. That's why I don't count guys like Hoover, Treadwell, Drone or Burkland as returning starters. If you want to count anyone who's started a game, then I hope you've got more 1-2 game starters up your sleeve, otherwise your argument fails.
Again. What the heck are you talking about MSU's LT? State graduated all of 2 OL last year; starting LG Foreman, and back-up OT McGaha. McGaha started the first series of the game against Youngstown State, and then didn't see PT the rest of the year except in blow-outs. Dan France, a RS Soph last year, started the final 13 games at LT.
I mean, if you want to go off, at least do a bit of background research.
Holy hell. You really do think McGaha was a starter .
It's clear that you don't know much, if anything, about Michigan State. I'm down to discuss this, and I do think Nebraska is being over-looked, but you go on these giant long rants without basic facts to back them up.
Regarding your LBs . . . it's not about who recruited who to do what, it's about the actual on-field talent. Here's a breakdown of MSU's returning defensive starters, and their accolades last year:
SDE: Will Gholston, 2nd Team All Big 10 2011, Preseason Conf. DPOY,
WDE: Marcus Rush, Hon. Mention All Big 10 2011, FR All American
WILL: Chris Norman, Hon. Mention All Big 10 2011
MIKE: Max Bullough, 2nd Team All Big 10, 2011,
SAM: Denicos Allen, 2nd Team All Big 10, 2011,
BCB: Johnny Adams, 1st Team All Big 10, 2011,
SS: Isaiah Lewis, 2nd Team All Big 10, 2011
FCB: Darqueze Dennard, Hon. Mention All Big 10, 2011
Count them. There's 8. That means every single returning starter on MSU's D was at least Hon. Mention All Big 10. Did I mention that 6 of those 8 were sophomores or younger last year, and those 6 were all 1st year starters last year (all but Adams and Norman)? I'd expect some improvement out of them.
The "new" DTs are 6'2 330 Anthony White a SR who started 5 games last year and MSU's 2010 starting SDE Tyler Hoover (6'7 310), also a senior. The new FS was the starter at NB last year; I don't "count" that position as a starter, but he did tally 17 tackles and 2 INTs.
Again, you can question the O all you want. To discount the D just seems foolish. I'm not guaranteeing that they'll be awesome again, but pre-season it's hard to argue with the perception that they look good; 8 returning starters, all of whom earned some sort of All Big 10 honor, 6 of which were 1st year starters. You can generally expect SOME improvement between your first and 2nd year starting, right?
Still want to discount MSU's defense (for preseason purposes)?
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by MalibuMan 21 months ago
Sorry, I was enjoying the thread until I saw daddyact spewing pure misinformation about MSU. I think the discussion is one worth having, but both sides need to have the best information possible. Daddyact is very wrong about Michigan State. I defer to the Nebraska posters on Nebraska.
Anyways, my take is that the formula someone put out on page 2 is correct: Pre-season rankings = Finish Last year + Returning Starters + minor look at schedule (*cough* Georgia misses LSU, Arky and Bama *cough*) + deference to bigger named programs (FSU being top 10? Really?).
From that standpoint, it makes sense that Nebraska isn't ranked on the same level as MSU and UM. Does that mean that Nebraska will finish 3rd in the conference? Of course not.
I think your schedule is hard (@tOSU, @MSU, @Iowa, even @Northwestern isn't a cakewalk, plus UM at home), but hey, so is everyone else's (MSU: @UM, @UW, Nebraska, Iowa, tOSU at home; UM: @Nebraska, @tOSU, @Purdue, Michigan State, Iowa at home)
Conference is going to be a bloodbath. 6-2 could win the division outright, though I think tie-breakers become huge. Each of the top 3 teams have 1 road and 1 home game vs. the other 2; MSU goes to Michigan and hosts Nebraska, Michigan goes to Nebraska and hosts MSU, and Nebraska goes to MSU and hosts Michigan.
I've got a ton of respect for Nebraska's program and the belly-g option is a royal pain to deal with. State gets the Huskers at the worst possible time; 10th straight game, immediately after @UM and @UW. The only saving grace is that Nebraska is coming off a home night game vs. Michigan right before coming to East Lansing, so both teams could very well be beat up.
Daddyact spews a lot of misinformation all the time. This is nothing new.
I like this Spartrocky and do not hate DA.
i don't have time to right all the things that I disagree with here
Teein' Off on Links
I never said mediocrity was great. I said we need to recognize that this is not the Nebraska of the Nineties.
As to reasons, I can give you many. Lack of a coherent, consistent offensive system the last three years. Lack of depth and talent in the Offensive Line since 2008.
Lack of experienced play-makers on defense in 2011. Experienced being the key word.
I don't think you win an average of 9.5 games per year without sufficient talent, but in some instances it has been a problem getting all of that talent on the same page and exerting the same amount of effort.
Changing conferences and playing against an entire conference line-up of unknown opponents did not help last year either, but then again, I didn't expect the Huskers to win more than nine games last year. We didn't lose to the teams I thought we'd lose to, but the results were not unexpected.
Our defense was in transition last year. Losing four NFL-caliber players from the 2010 team on defense meant that 2011 was going to be a transition year on defense, especially considering the lack of depth at Linebacker.
Our overall talent level is much higher this season, at LB, at Safety, at CB, and at DE. Yeah, we lose David, but Compton, Anderson, Whaley/Fisher, and Santos are a big improvement. Green is better. Evans at Nickel will be better. Osborne at the Dime will be better. Jackson, Seisay, Davie, and SJB will be better. Stafford will be better, along with Cooper and Harvey. Experience in the DBackfield always improves Bo's defense, just as it made a huge leap forward in 2009 from 2008.
This defense will improve by about seven points per game or better this year, on average.
Our talent level in the OL is better and deeper than we've had since 2006, and perhaps even 1999.
Our talent at WR and TE is the best we've had since the mid-nineties.
We still don't know what we truly have behind Rex at RB, either.
Overall, our talent level is better than any we've had since 1999, imo. Way better than 2006. We may not be better than 2009 on defense. Players like Ndamakong Suh come along once in a decade, but right now we have far more offensive talent than we've had in a decade.
This program is not mediocre, and we have to stop equating mediocrity with winning 70% of our games. Mediocrity is a team which wins only as much as it loses. Mediocrity is breaking even over the long haul. Nebraska is not a mediocre team. Northwestern is a mediocre team. They craft a few big upsets every year, but they also lose to teams they shouldn't and end up around 50% year after year. 40-36 over six years is mediocre. 38-16 is not. 57-23 is not, which is what Bo's six year record should be if they don't get any better than they have been the last four years.
Michigan State was a mediocre program until 2010. They've been pretty damn good the last two years, and yet if Bo finishes 9-4 again, he'll have a better record over his first five years than Mark Dantonio.
9-4 is not a mediocre record, except in the minds of those fans who demand the Huskers win ten or eleven games every year.
If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.
Actually, I don't. I have my own opinions about things and sometimes i lack the necessary information to solidify that opinion, but I have never spewed any misinformation about Nebraska, andI challenge you to give me one instance when I have done so.
You, on the other hand, state your opinions as if they are unequivocal facts constantly, without an iots of fact to back them up.
You love to spread rumor and innuendo about certain players and coaches, and you have never once admitted when you've been wrong.
This is nothing new.
I think your point about schedule is extremely relevant, and examining the last decade of Big Ten football proves that home field advantage as well as which teams you play when is of utmost importance.
I'm convinced that the Michigan debacle does not happen if that game is played in Lincoln, just as I'm fairly certain MSU doesn't lose last year to Nebraska in East Lansing. Home field and schedule will always be important in games versus roughly equal opposition.
That being said, Dantonio has lots of work to do replacing his entire receiving corps (including TEs) and the guy who's going to have to put the ball into their hands. I hope your OL is as good as last year. It should be, but unless you plan to pound the rock sixty carries a game, you are not going to equal Cousins' production. Maybe a year from now, but not in 2012.
I feel similarly about Wisconsin this year. So many of our fans are ceding the game to UW, based on the team they had last year, but as we know, UW had vulnerabilities that could be exploited, and they did not play that well on the road against teams with comparable talent. They're hoping lightning will strike twice with another ACC import, but that's extremely unlikely, not to mention that they have considerable losses on the defensive side, as well as offense.
The games that concern me the most are Ohio State, because it's in Columbus, and Michigan, because they return practically their entire offensive team from last year. The MSU game does not concern beyond the the fact that it's in East Lansing. Your defense is certainly good enough to hold Nebraska to 24 points again, but is your offense going to be capable of scoring more than that?
Is Tou Fonoti any relation by chance to Toniu Fonoti, the last great O-lineman the Huskers had about 10 years ago?
So is 9-4 what Bo meant when he roared "Nebraska's back and we're here to stay!!" after the Holiday Bowl a couple-three years ago? Must be.
Anyone who bases a prognosis of this year's Huskers-Spartans game based on last year's result is 'way mistaken. Huskers had basically 3 weeks to get ready for that game a year ago--bye week after Ohio State, then a true cupcake game against Minnesota, and THEN the Michigan State week. What did MSU have leading up--a heavy game against Ohio State if I recall correctly, followed by the Wisconsin heartstopper just a week before they came to Lincoln. They were out of gas in all respects.
Many Spartan fans fear the same of this season.
I think Nebraska's biggest problem is their front 7. You just don't develop space-eaters and powerful LBs overnight; it usually takes a couple of years. As such, you guys are a bit light in your front 7. That's problematic vs. teams like Wisconsin and Ohio State, and in most years vs. Iowa as well.
I think your earlier parts about your OL have merit; I don't consider Nebraska to have an elite offensive line. For an option team, that's not a good thing, though they certainly could improve this year. Finally, I don't think it matters how good your WRs/TEs are if Martinez can't get them the ball. I'm not saying that he's going to be bad this year, but I don't think he's equipped to bring the most out in your skill players. Caveat: I say that with last year in mind and certainly believe he could take a major step forward. Preseason, however, I can really only go off of last year.
For Michigan State, I'd rather be replacing the skill players than the offensive line. The line was not very good at run-blocking, owing mostly in part to 3 new starters, 2 of which were lost vs. ND (Game 3). In short, there was no time for the OL to build chemistry and continuity, crucial to any OL. Somewhat impressive is the fact that they were outstanding in pass blocking, allowing just 16 sacks in 14 games. For a pass-first O featuring a statue at QB, that's pretty impressive. UGA came in among the top 5 teams in the nation in sacks and mustered . . . 1.
This year, the starting 5 was set by the 2nd week of Spring practice and 4 of these guys started the last 11 games or so last year (C Travis Jackson missed 1 of those, started the other 10). You generally expect improved play from year 1 to year 2 of a starter, so I don't think it's a reach to expect some sort of improved play from 3/5 OL spots. The 4th is held by pre-season 1st Team All Big 10 Chris McDonald and the 5th by RS JR Treadwell, last year's opening day starting C.
I do expect a stronger emphasis on the run-game; Bell is a very strong back (6'2 244, 5.2 YPC, 948 yards 13 TDs last year) and he should eclipse 1200 yards this season. This may be surprising, but I do expect an upgrade at FB. Last year's FB, Todd Anderson, was a converted walk-on DE who played FB for the first time last season, while this year MSU features RS Soph Niko Palazeti, a career FB since HS (6'0 255).
Replacing Cunningham will not be easy. Replacing Martin's 777 yards and 4 TDs is not an insurmountable task, and I think the #3 receiver stands a great chance at eclipsing Nichol's 352 yards an 3 TDs. The receivers are absolutely unproven, but that doesn't mean they'll be bad. Maxwell has been throwing to them on the scout team for several years now, so it's not as though there's going to be a lack of chemistry.
As for TE, Sims (6'5 280) had 12 catches for 99 yards and 3 TDs, but didn't catch another pass after the Wisconsin game. He broke his wrist in that game and played with a cast the rest of the year. There was one play vs. Nebraska where he got behind your D towards the sideline and he just couldn't haul in the pass with one hand. He's the most physically gifted TE MSU has had since Kellen Davis in 2007 (now with the Bears). That's no promise as to his production, just speaking to his potential.
As for matching Cousins production . . . he had his worst passing game of the year vs. Nebraska; 11/27 for 86 yards (great job, btw). From that perspective, it wouldn't take much for Maxwell to exceed that production against Nebraska. Whether he approaches Cousins' 3316 yards 25 TDs and 10 INTs . . . I highly doubt it. I'm expecting somewhere in the realm of 2600 yards, 19 TDs and 11 INTs.
You're 100% right about Wisconsin. They're completely different away from Camp Randall. Michigan, however, is quite similar. They were 2-2 on the road last season, with only a 31-13 W over IL looking convincing.
MSU's D should be as good, if not better, than last year's, and the game is at Spartan Stadium. It's not as though Nebraska tore MSU a new one last year; you had 270 total yards, averaged 3.3 YPC on the ground and Martinez completed 7 passes. It was your D that made the difference, and I wonder if they'll be the same away from Lincoln, especially against what should be an improved O-line and running game for MSU. Remember, Bell ran for 4.8 YPC, but only was given 12 carries . . . Baker received 10 carries at 3.8 YPC. I wonder if the game turns out a bit different if Bell logs 20-25 carries, and MSU's OC doesn't plan on running the same dumb plays right into the teeth of your Cover 2.
Final thought: our teams play each other in week 10, so all the talk of this pre-season stuff is relatively moot; we'll know exactly what each squad has by the time our game rolls around.
This year isn't any better, and may even be worse:
@Indiana (ok, psuedo bye week )
Only saving grace is that Nebraska has @Northwestern (revenge game for you guys) and hosts Michigan in a night game . . . just like how MSU hosted Wisconsin in a night game before traveling to Lincoln last year. Now, the Huskers don't have the same schedule immediately before MSU, but it's tougher than what you guys had going on last year.
The other thought . . . it's conceivable that one or both of our squads is out of the Big 10 race by the time they play. State could lose to Ohio State, Michigan and Wisconsin, and Nebraska could lose to Wisconsin, Ohio State and Michigan. You wonder what the motivation is going to be for both teams at that point . . . which is also why it's hard to debate a match-up in the second half of the season in the pre-season.
I think he meant Nebraska's back to the upper echelons of CFB, and it's would be hard not to see that they are in the top 20% of D1-A again.
Nebraska will challenge for championships, but like most programs will not win them as frequently as we once did. There's more competition, it's better than it used to be, and Nebraska isn't yet as good as they were in the Eighties and Nineties, but it is good enough to win the B1G, if not this year, then in 2013.
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