In partnership with CBSSports.com
You have no favorite boards.
The most viewed topics.
The most replied to topics.
The most up-voted topics.
The most down-voted topics.
The most up-voted posters.
The most down-voted posters.
The most followed posters.
Have at it boys !!
tBB is going to have a hayday with this one.
This is no flame but can someone explain to me the big tens issue issue with the SEC signing up to 28/year. I have been told by a friend of
Teein' Off on Links
Imo it's already bad enough for the student-athletes that they get little to none of the multi billion dollars they help make. But with over-signing they can lose their scholarship
Discussing oversigning with SEC fans, and in particular Alabama fans, is akin to discussing marijuana with a heroine addict.
I think the issues of oversigning are overblown. DiNardo from the Big Ten Network said that the Big Ten rules permit greater oversigning than the rules of the SEC - it is just a matter of taking advantage of it. Nebraska has no room to really complain -- we didn't fill out all of our scholarships last year so unless and until you can fill out your recruiting class up to 25 people, you cannot really complain about people signing more. If "oversigning" or taking advantage of early enrollment is completely legal, than whining about it is just that.
Folks say that the SEC teams run players off that are not performing but I would like to see specifics. Nebraska and other teams have annual attrition -- guys that sign up to play football will leave on their own right if they are not playing at all -- why take a beating every week in practice to just sit on the sideline, never getting any playing time in the actual game?
The Big 10 only allows teams to be at 88 players on/after signing day regardless of how many recruits they bring in.
In the SEC, they can bring in.25 kids even if they only 8 departing Seniors. As long as they are at 85 players on scholarship come fall camp they are fine.
Alabama has verifiably been 10 to 12 over that number for the past 5 years. This year they have 9 scholarship Seniors and all of 3 early enrollees to the NFL draft. That is 12 guys available and 15 if they were a Big 10 team. Right now they have 20 commitments and are still actively recruiting. I bet they end up with at least 23 if not a full class of 25. Regardless of if they pick up any additional players, they have to thin their roster by 8 guys before fall camp. That number will undoubtedly rise in the next few weeks, and that is the very definition of oversigning.
Personally....until we sign to the limit...I don't think we should be complaining about other teams oversigning. We don't even do the minimum
I've never had an issue with it. It's big boy football. If a player doesn't contribute show them the door.
I want to know the names of some players -- 10 (arbitrary number) - that have been shown the door by an SEC team that was on the field performance related. That would be players without academic or off the field problems -- strictly performance - that were kicked off their teams. If it is so rampant as some suggest, I think this would be a fairly easy task.
Attached are actual names associated with players that moved on from Alabama after signing day so that they could meet the 85 man scholarship limit by fall camp.
These names and numbers are from the 2010 and 2011 classes.
I'd also point out, that Alabama has 9 scholarship players in their Senior class this year. Back in 2008 they signed the #1 overall class that included 32 players. In 2009 they signed the #1 overall class of 28 players. How do I get that cut down to 9? They don't have that many guys moving on to the NFL early, and of the 9 guys left 8 of them were starters and the 9th was Nico Johnson who was basically a starter who will be drafted into the NFL this year.
So not only are they getting the best classes on a year in and year out basis, they are also signing an additional class every 4 years compared to Nebraska and the rest of the BIg 10.
I don't buy the argument that we can't complain if we aren't at the maximum number of scholarships every year.
I think it's fair to reserve some scholarship spots for walk-ons who have earned them. Long-run, it leads to a stronger walk-on program (we can demonstrably show that they can be rewarded for their hard work). Furthermore, I'd rather reward those kids than take another scholarship athlete for the sake of it. We could give away the max number of scholarships a year if we wanted to. It's not difficult.
Second of all, isn't that argument kind of like saying "you can't complain about people driving too fast on the interstate if you aren't going the speed limit?" There is a moral objection to the practice well beyond the "competitive advantage" argument. Kids are being persuaded by coaches to relocate to their school, set up new lives, and work hard for the football team, in exchange for a free education. Now, if a kid doesn't uphold his end, it's just like an academic scholar losing his aid for falling below a B average -- I have no problem with that. But if the kid is upholding his end of the bargain, and the only reason he isn't making it is because the coach misevaluated his talent or potential, then that's on the coach. You can't punish a kid because someone else messed up at their job. Plain and simple.
Coaches are punishing kids for their own mistakes, all to gain competitive advantage. Yeah, I find that objectionable, regardless of how many scholarship recruits Nebraska takes.
This post was edited by MikeCaramba 18 months ago
If you chose to hold some back for walk-ons you are going to be short on depth. Furthermore...it's one thing to hold 1-2 back each year. It's another to hold 4-6 back which is where we've been each year.
Last year on signing day...after Peat went elsehwhere...we finished with 83 scholarships. That's before spring attrition. You can't compete at the top doing that. That's self-imposed probation.
Until we are doing all we can to maximize our talent, we shouldn't be complaining. I'm not saying you have to agree with what the SEC does. But there's two sides to why there is a talent gap. We control one of them. Figure that out first...then worry about the other. Erase your competitive disadvantage first...then worry about whether or not their competitive advantage is ethical or not.
And has been pointed out...ethical or not...it's legal and their are loopholes. Credit to the SEC schools for exploiting them.
This post was edited by nustudent 18 months ago
Obviously we disagree on how scholarships should be awarded, which is fine, but I think that's beside the point. I'm not complaining merely as a Nebraska fan, upset that his team is being out-gamed by the big, bad SEC. I'm complaining as a fan of college football. It's not just loopholes being exploited -- it's kids. The practice of oversigning (which is admittedly less rampant than it was at one time) is wrong, regardless of how my, or anyone's, favorite team chooses to recruit
Maybe, maybe not depending on what your values are. I disagree with it...but I can't make a big deal out of it. It's technically legal.
As a Nebraska fan....we need to clean up our own house before we worry about others, IMO.
this is exactly right... I have inside knowledge on many of those names listed due to my connections in Alabama through some family that work in the collegiate sports system down there. Those that "transferred" on the list did not have a say in whether or not they could continue at Alabama, also the medical hardship more often than not has nothing to do with an injury suffered by those students. It's simply a way to get them off the football roster.
The sad thing is that most of these kids are either silenced by the system or stay silent because of their blind loyalty to the Alabama football program. These kids are getting taken advantage of and many of them don't even realize it. And I didn't even get into the gray-shirt issue.
Perhaps you're right, from a "competitive advantage" standpoint -- it's bad form to complain about another team holding over you when you don't take advantage of your resources. From a theoretical/moralistic standpoint, I think everyone has the right to engage.
I agree it's legal, but should it be? If not illegal, should we discourage the behavior? Personally, I think we should tie bowl participation to graduation rates. I haven't looked at data, so I have no numbers to offer up, but add some incentive for schools to keep kids on for four years. Waivers for misconduct.
Pry shouldn't be legal. But it is what it is. It's not illegal. And while you can say it hurts the kids....I'm starting to feel less and less sorry for them considering this has been going on for a while now and they haven't learned their lesson. Kids are still signing with these schools knowing full well this could occur.
At what point though does the onus shift towards the kids. Bama has been doing this now for years...it's no secret...yet the kids keeping signing up.
Again...not agreeing with what Bama does....but it's not illegal and these kids keep signing knowing what could and likely will transpire.
Not sure I get your second paragraph. Alabama or schools in the SEC are not giving out scholarships to fill out rosters -- their grey shirt program is our walk-on program. What people are saying about Nebraska not filling out its scholarships is that Nebraska seeks to add 20 players via scholarship and puts out a lot of offers but still doesn't fill the 20. So whining that someone is able to fill their scholarships while you can't lacks some credence.
The comparison to complaining about speeding isn't apt because the SEC schools signing isn't illegal under the NCAA or SEC rules or else they would be sanctioned. From the oversigning piece, there were very few kids who had their scholarships not renewed and there was no reason given for those cases -- maybe they had off the field problems. I noticed 3 players in that boat.
There are also some medical hardships -- maybe that runs off players. However, Jarvis Jones was a medical hardship from USC -- that seemed to work out okay for Georgia and the kid will be a top-5 NFL draft pick.
Stupid to walk into that situation -- I wouldn't do it -- but at the end of the day, they aren't the ones doing wrong. I just hope that someday soon, the NCAA has rules that apply to all schools that encourage teams to stick with players who put in the requisite effort. Not sure if that day will come...
Why should a school be punished because kids left school early to enter the NFL draft as your bowl participation, tied to graduation rates suggests? Certainly some exception should be made for players that go into the NFL in our scenario or your are punishing schools for having top-flight talent. Alabama has 3 guys (at least) leaving this year after their JR year and all will be 1st-2d picks.
I was trying to say this in the second paragraph: Nebraska could have handed out 20 scholarships, so it doesn't make sense that handing out 18 -- or whatever -- should preclude them from complaining. Imagine after signing day, they'd gone to Ryker Fyfe and Frazier King and said, "Hey guys, we really want to get to 20 new scholarship athletes, you're next in line" -- they would have taken them. Then our class is at 20 scholarships and our team is the exact same size as it would have been otherwise -- but now we have the right to complain about oversigning? Makes no sense, thus, it's an arbitrary metric.
As for the speeding analogy -- you're probably right. Choosing an illegal act as a point of comparison for a legal act probably wasn't a good choice. The only point I was trying to make was this: people have the right to object to others stepping over a moral boundary, even if they themselves don't toe that line.
That's fine. Wasn't trying to lay out a complete proposal. Obviously you don't want to punish teams for having successful players.
i knew the activity in here would boom haha
Good question... the problem is that the coaching staff often (from the stories i've heard personally) promises students that if they commit they will be given specific roles on the team and that they will have a spot regardless. Many of the kids that have been taken advantage of through this process don't say anything when the coaches go back on their word out of fear. There is one story, from a linebacker, who i won't name, that actually was threatened not to say anything because no one would believe him anyway and if he did no school would take him in a transfer. Needless to say, that young man is no longer a fan of the Crimson Tide.
Some of it is on the kids for buying those lies, but I think it's mostly on the coaches and the NCAA. The NCAA isn't blind to what's going on, but they don't really care as the product continues to get better and raise NCAA clout.
this. i chimed in but as soon as i hit the send button i regretted it... we will see how this plays out.
Where I would like this to go is some kind of meeting amongst the powers that be (much like the playoff talks last summer), in which the conference commissioners (and hopefully even coaches) engage on discussions to bring forth the rules and regulations that every FBS team will abide by going forward regarding numbers and recruiting.
If that ends up being the current rules at hand, so be it. Leave no loopholes open for vague interpretations. Force Medical Hardships, Greyshirts, and outright non-renewal of scholarships to be open and available for public consumption.
Make the recruiting process and the scholarship process as transparent as possible. Allow the new crop of 17 and 18 year old kids and their families see the possibility of where they go laid out in front of them.
Force the teams to present a document to potential recruits that outlines their recruiting numbers over the past 5 years or more, and the reasons why particular student-athletes are no longer at their institution.
The saddest part to me in all of this is 50+ year old men lying to young adults that are half, if not 1/3rd their age to take advantage of their athletic prowess for their benefit. And if they don't meet their expectations or poor evaluation of talent, they discard them like yesterday's news.
Make it an open process of evaluation on both sides of the fence.
247Sports In partnership with CBS Sports